REALITY ON A STICK

Debating Politics or Religion: 5 reasons you shouldn’t bother.

February 11, 2007 · 10 Comments

Reason #1: No one’s listening.

Sure they say they’re listening–and they may quote specific language to strengthen their argument–but they’re not really listening, not in the ‘hey, let’s put our heads together and figure this thing out’ sense. Not a chance. No way. No how. (And here’s a little head’s up for those who can’t resist verbal conflict: If the ‘listener’ ever begins her/his retort with a compliment and a pooful smile, brace yourself to take the rhetorical equivalent of a forearm shiver to the chops, ’cause it’s on the way.)

Reason #2: Making someone feel small–so you can feel big–is way lame

There’s just something so Junior High about feeling the need to tit-for-tat. Look, you can intellectualize the process as much as you want, but it never amounts to more than a glorified pissing contest. Worse yet, if you actually manage to stump your opponent, here’s what to expect: she/he will get frustrated and emotional, you’ll feel like a jackass as you try to smooth things over, you’ll both end up saying things you’ll sincerely regret, and you’ll part with a creepy vibe between you. Way to go BIG guy!

Reason #3: Wasted time breeds wasted time.

If you somehow manage to get through all that pseudo-intellectual banter without hurt feelings, it probably means that neither side was very knowledgeable or convincing–>which means you’ll part ways feeling like you have unfinished business–>which means there’s a good chance you’re in for another session of rehashing the same uninformed points at the next opportunity. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for chillin’ out and doing absolutely nothing with friends, but hangin’ out and trying to one-up each other endlessy, talking about the same bologna over and again, well that’s just flat out retarded (and embarrassingly uninteresting).

Reason #4: No take backs.

As if things weren’t bad enough, you’ve now painted yourself into a corner. How so? Now there is no way you can ever change your mind on the debated topic without looking like a complete schmuck. Here’s an idea: learn the subtle art of not overcommitting and your little habit of setting yourself up for public embarrassment every time you open your mouth will disappear. Claiming your own view to be correct beyond a doubt is tantamount to declaring that you’ve closed your mind to all future considerations on the subject. Congratulations. That’s Grade AAA Dumb.

Reason #5: No goal = No winner.

If the debate process were widely recognized to have a clearly defined goal, even an open-ended one like ‘the pursuit of greater understanding through an exhaustive presentation of available facts,’ then I wouldn’t be writing this piece. As it stands, however, you could ask 5 people what debate means and get 5 very different answers. Even dictionaries give a series of confusing and incompatible definitions, so how can we expect people to be going in with a common purpose? I mean seriously, if it’s not about learning from one another then what’s the point? To humiliate someone? To make yourself look good? To bring someone ’round to your way of thinking?!! Wait wait wait. Now that’s some funny shit right there! Let me ask you a question: When was the last time you locked horns with someone who opposed your views on politics or religion and one of you left the conversation with a new set of beliefs. Here, I’ll help you: It starts with an ‘N’ and ends with an ‘EVERINYOURSORRYASSLIFEYOUSELFABSORBEDTWAT!’

Nonetheless, in the interest of academic pursuit, let’s assume that you’re sticking to your guns and claiming to possess that oh-so-rare ability to lead individuals along an enlightened path to conscientious thought (AKA: the way). I hope you’re still close enough to planet Earth to recognize that your clan of newly converted are of that same lost and vulnerable variety that cult leaders can sniff out in a crowded room. Think about it. Those who can access information and form conclusions on their own do not change their beliefs on the basis of one individual’s opinions. Period. So if you indeed happen to have a knack for striking up longwinded conversations with spineless ‘yes women/men’, keep ‘em close to you–or locked up– ’cause they’re sure to flip once again just as soon as they come across the next know-it-all, ‘change the world one person at a time,’ always-talkin-yappity-yap-and-never-gettin-a-damned-thing-done, waste of space.

Feeling ineffective yet, Mr. Semantic Wonder? Let me give you a little free advice: quit bangin’ your head against the wall and talk to someone who cares about what you have to say, like someone ready to learn from you. If no one wants to learn from you, please DON’T have children to rectify the situation. Do everyone a favor: go out, get a little smarter, and while you’re at it a little personal reflection would’t hurt. Once you’ve wised up enough to grasp the finer points of philosophical inquiry, you’ll truly be free, because you’ll have learned that hot-headed exchanges of opinion never yield knowledge.

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Categories: debate · human nature · perspective · philosophy · politics · rants · religion

10 responses so far ↓

  • Marco Polo // February 12, 2007 at 2:55 am | Reply

    Erm…. I agree… if that’s ok with you, that is…. Sir….

  • Marco Polo // February 12, 2007 at 2:55 am | Reply

    On the other hand, whatever happened to debate, as in “learning from other points of view”??

  • glanton // February 12, 2007 at 3:24 am | Reply

    no ones listening? what’s there to listen to when we’ve all got our own sacred identities to fasten strong to. it gives us something to justify the fact that i can take another mans life without blinking an eye. yeah, fuck empathy. kill the dragon or wrestle with it. and what would that lead to? inner dialogue with the other? oh no… then i won’t be able to throw in the whole social gamut of racial, political, religious… framework into the equation. listen to the other side? that threatens my entire construct of personal identity that doesn’t match up to the real world? fuck!
    good point steven, because you know what- noone is fucking listening. we just want to keep slaying cain expecting him to ever come back…

  • Mick // February 12, 2007 at 7:01 am | Reply

    Gotta say I agree with you – reluctantly, because I think religion is fascinating and I used to think politics was too. When I was younger I naively thought that politics was the art and science of finding the people who had the best way of distributing the most to the most. Oh so sad! I’ve wisened up. As for debate, I just can’t get my head around the idea that increasing understanding of a particular phenomenon is accomplished through debate. Let’s face it, the goal of debate is winning. Truth is only useful if it facilitates victory. Etc…
    Yeah, you’re right but I must say I’m really happy when I meet someone who can talk about religion without all the baggage.

  • realityonastick // February 12, 2007 at 5:46 pm | Reply

    Thanks to everyone for the comments!

    Marco Polo: Yeah, I think the problem lies in how we define the terms. From what I can gather, most people have included in their definition of ‘debate’ something along the lines of ‘arguing to win.’ The problem is that the criteria for winning is left undefined. In parliamentary debate, there are rules, guidelines, and judges:

    http://www.apdaweb.org/old/guide/rules.html

    I suspect that the practice of debating for the benefit of an audience–as in American political elections–morphs both the intentionality and the impact. It can often end up being nothing more than a public bullying contest. It becomes all about shaming the proponents of the opposing position by way of humiliating their spokesperson, hoping that they’ll become so embarrassed that they’ll consider flipping or at question their own beliefs.

    To get back to your point, though, I hear what you’re saying. Debate, in the everyday sense, really shouldn’t have to include this negative, hostile approach. But I think to achieve more constructive paramaters we’d have to redefine ‘debate’ to mean something that strays too far from common usage. It’s much easier to choose a more neutral word: discussion, discourse, dialogue, etc. as seems to be the trend in education.

  • realityonastick // February 12, 2007 at 8:17 pm | Reply

    Glanton: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep it comin’, raw and unabashed:-)

    Mick: Agree on both counts. Religion is a fascinating discussion topic as long as neither side has anything to sell. And I used to be much more outspoken about my political views until I realized that I was buying them in bulk and selling them to the unsuspecting undecided. In the end I decided that I’d have to hold much stronger convictions before I’d feel comfortable running around trying to convert anyone. Shortly after that, I stopped seeing the value in hustling beliefs altogether.

    Now I’m more interested in being a part of the solution at a grassroots level–giving young minds the guidance and space they need to foster a healthy curiosity in their surroundings; learning and passsing on the principles that govern human interaction and community development; learning how public and private educational institutions function and why.

    Frankly, I just have a hard time being hopeful about anything as lofty as instigating reform in the distribution of power and wealth during my lifetime. But I think it’s safe to say that it’s all got to start with a redistribution of knowledge, so an educator I am, and an educational leader I strive to be.

    As it stands, people don’t even know where to start when it’s time to go shopping for beliefs. It has way more to do with social environment and convenience than awareness or conscious choice. That just has to change, or the slow bleeding of the undereducated and unaware will continue indefinitely. Hope Web 2.0 can provide some assistance here.

  • Tony // February 14, 2007 at 4:48 am | Reply

    Very interesting piece there Steve. Too much to comment on now, but I did enjoy it.

    When crafty (or blatent) rhetorical techniques sway arguments, there will always be an price to pay, and that price will usually be learning and truth.

  • Marco Polo // February 15, 2007 at 12:57 am | Reply

    Steve, you and readers might be interested in this article by John Reed on intellectually honest (and dishonest) debate tactics.

    On a different note, while I kind of enjoy your sarcastic tone, this feels more like the real Steve and it made me feel better than the original posts: Now I’m more interested in being a part of the solution at a grass roots level–giving young minds the guidance and space they need to foster a healthy curiosity in their surroundings; learning and passing on the principles that govern human interaction and community development; learning how public and private educational institutions function and why. I’d be glad to read more posts along those lines, with practical examples, links to sites and stories, etc. To paraphrase a famous dead (but not white) male: “The batshit crazies are always with you”. To paraphrase a very good friend of mine, we are like the groundsman of a beautiful golf course: instead of seeing the 99% which is perfectly green, he’s just focussing on the one little brown patch, and tearing his hair out.

  • Mick // February 18, 2007 at 9:32 am | Reply

    Steve, I agree 100%, in theory, with what you said about being part of the solution at a grassroots level. My difficulty with this is two-fold: 1. I am a teacher and therefore an authority figure. This means that regardless of any effort I make, what I say will probably be interpreted as “correct”. Furthermore, if I hedge, what I have to say has little or no impact because people WANT ME TO BE AUTHORITATIVE. I think you can see the dilemma. 2. I am a Catholic – by most people’s definitions lapsed. Nevertheless, my world view is shaped by my Catholicism. Unlike many, I’ve discovered REAL links between my culture and other cultures through people like Thomas Merton but due to history, ignorance, misinterpretation and so on I have to carefully think through anything I tell the young people I encounter – in the end I either risk misunderstand or I deny MYSELF.
    Thanks to Marco Polo for the link on debate. I still have a problem with the debate thing because I know that people with valid viewpoints who are not proficient at expressing them according to the accepted logic are unheard. We cannot assume that illogical speech means illogical thinking.

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